In this episode, Jack Cochran and Matthew James continue their conversation with Micah Joel, diving deep into the metrics that matter when building and justifying a demo engineering team. Micah shares practical approaches to measuring the value of demo engineering, from simple time-saving calculations to sophisticated surveys that capture SE satisfaction and retention indicators. The conversation explores how to frame these metrics in terms that senior management cares about, moving beyond technical accomplishments to demonstrate real business impact.

Micah emphasizes the importance of thinking “top down” when building a demo engineering organization, focusing on what leadership values most: productivity, cost savings, and revenue growth. He shares real-world examples from his time at Salesforce’s Q Branch, including how to measure the value of demo environments, how to identify unexpected patterns in the data (like deals where demo engineers get involved), and how cultivating relationships with SEs creates goodwill that extends beyond the numbers. The discussion also covers how demo engineering impacts go-to-market speed for new products and how to position the team as mission-critical support for field teams rather than just a technical function.

Follow Us

• Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

• Connect with Matthew James https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewyoungjames/ 

• Connect with Micah Joel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micahjoel/

Links and Resources Mentioned

• Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

• Sol/Con 2026 (Chicago, August 2026): https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026

• Presales Collective Podcast: https://www.presalescollective.com/podcast

Key Topics Covered

1. Establishing baseline metrics for demo engineering through time-saving calculations

2. Using SE surveys to measure demo environment value and satisfaction

3. Identifying retention indicators at 3-year and 7-year tenure marks

4. Reducing technical barriers to hiring SEs through better demo tooling

5. Thinking “top down” to align metrics with senior management priorities

6. Measuring go-to-market speed and time-to-revenue for new products

7. Building goodwill and political capital with SE teams

8. Branding your demo engineering team with effective metaphors

9. Course-correcting when metrics don’t align with expectations

10. Positioning demo engineering within the organization structure

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome 

02:55 Measuring time saved with tooling 

09:20 Reducing technical hiring barriers 

13:50 Building the overall business case 

18:30 When metrics don’t line up 

21:20 Product-to-Market (P2M) 

27:40 Final thoughts on top-down thinking

Jack and Jerome are back to dish on all things fast food in Las Vegas!

From guilty pleasure drive-thru favorites to childhood fast food

memories, the guys cover it all in this entertaining episode.

00:00 – Intro and catching up

01:23 – Favorite fast food picks

09:35 – Fast food nostalgia

14:00 – Airport food philosophy

21:38 – Starbucks food failures

25:05 – Fast food on the Las Vegas Strip

Jerome’s top picks: Wendy’s fries and Junior Bacon Cheeseburger, In-N-Out (but only when drinking)

Jack’s favorites: Jimmy John’s and Taco Bell’s Crunch Wrap Supreme

Next episode: Jack and Jerome will explore their favorite drinking spots in Las Vegas!

Jack Cochran is joined by Paul Krauss. We continue our conversation from the last episode. Today we explore how to better identify the things that lead to burnout and how to deal with it when you are experiencing high stress.

Book discussed during the interview: Panic Proof: The New Holistic Solution to End Your Anxiety Forever by Dr. Nicole Cain

Paul Krauss MA LPC is the Clinical Director of Health for Life Counseling Grand Rapids, home of The Trauma-Informed Counseling Center of Grand Rapids. Paul is also a Private Practice Psychotherapist, an Approved EMDRIA Consultant , host of the Intentional Clinician podcast, Behavioral Health Consultant, Clinical Trainer, Counseling Supervisor, and Meditation Teacher. Paul is now offering consulting for a few individuals and organizations. Paul is the creator of the National Violence Prevention Hotline as well as the Intentional Clinician Training Program for Counselors. Paul has been quoted in the Washington Post, NBC News, Wired Magazine, and Counseling Today.

Lidia Vasileva joins us to talk about Stolen Focus and about getting into flow! Find Lidia on Linkedin or at https://www.packetmage.com/

This month’s book is Stolen Focus by Johann Hari. Pick up a copy (or don’t).

Be sure to check out https://demojockeys.com/ for our full list of past and upcoming books, previous episodes, and more.

Next month’s book is 4 Pillars of Critical Thinking by Patrik Ian Meyer.

Music: Iron Pan and The Wu Town Shuffle by Mr. Lincoln

00:00 Bump the Mic!

00:30 Middle seat

03:05 Welcome to DemoJockeys

03:52 The Interview

05:25 Did Lidia like the book?

08:21 It started good?

11:05 How lean is your phone?

15:11 Who is this book for?

18:35 Flowstate

26:40 Out o here